MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST:
And we begin this hour with the fight for the future of the Democratic Party, a fight unfolding in primaries across the country, ballot after ballot, pitting moderate establishment candidates against progressives like this guy.
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ABDUL EL-SAYED: What a race. You know, in the words of Muhammad Ali, we shook up the world.
KELLY: That is Abdul El-Sayed speaking to reporters this morning. Voters in Michigan just picked him as the Democratic nominee for the Senate, a huge primary win for progressives, although establishment candidates also picked up wins last night. So what are the takeaways here? The question we will put to Senator Bernie Sanders, independent from Vermont, self-described democratic socialist who endorsed El-Sayed. Senator, welcome back to ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.
BERNIE SANDERS: Good to be with you.
KELLY: How do you see the stakes in what happened in Michigan last night? Was this the most important test yet for where Democrats and the Democratic Party is headed?
SANDERS: I think maybe. I think it's important to appreciate the extraordinary victory that Abdul won last night. He took on the Michigan Democratic establishment, virtually all of them. He took on the national Democratic establishment. And most importantly, he took on, in what I think is unprecedented - I've never heard of this - close to $70 million in one state, the state of Michigan, from super PAC money, half of which - or 30 million of which was from AIPAC.
KELLY: And I want to talk about the money in just a second, but I do want to just push you. This was not a blowout. This was not the cakewalk that early polling suggested it might be. Why do you think not?
SANDERS: This is the most extraordinary victory in modern American politics. He took on everybody and over $60 million. That he won by one vote would've been an extraordinary victory. In terms of polling, I don't know what to say about Michigan polling. They got to work on getting some better pollsters. I remember when I ran for president in 2016, they told me the pollsters said, you got a 99% to 1% chance of winning in Michigan. We won in Michigan. I think they need some new pollsters there.
KELLY: Here's to better and good polling. OK. On the money, how big a factor was AIPAC-affiliated money yesterday...
SANDERS: It was huge.
KELLY: ...In Michigan?
SANDERS: It was huge. The fact that she lost speaks to Abdul's campaign and the fact that he had many, many thousands of people knocking on doors. Let's - the fact that he won does not mean that money does not play a role. I have never seen a campaign where so much money and so much establishment support went to the other candidate and another candidate won.
KELLY: Electability. We're talking about elections. We're talking about electability. As you know well, Senator Sanders, the conventional wisdom has been, you know, moderate Democrats are going to have a better shot at winning in the general election once they get past the primary because they might have a better shot at picking up undecided voters, swing voters and so on. Does that conventional wisdom hold in 2026?
SANDERS: No. We're seeing - if there's anything we're seeing right now in this very unusual moment in American history is conventional wisdom is no longer conventional. It's out of touch with reality. What you're seeing, again, from all over this country is people who've never run for office before. People who are trade unionists, iron workers suddenly running and winning primaries in Montana or in Ohio and so forth.
The way you win elections, to my mind, is that you have to generate excitement. The American people now are very frustrated with the Democratic Party and the Republican Party and Donald Trump. They are hurting. They can't afford health care, they can't afford housing, can't afford a decent retirement. And they're looking around them, and they're saying, does the government do anything for me? And the answer is not much. And the reason for that is you have a corrupt campaign finance system, and members of Congress can't stand up to the money.
So when you have candidates, progressives going out and saying - you know what? - I'm going to take on these guys. It is insane that we have more income and wealth inequality in America today than ever, that we're the only major country not to guarantee health care to all people or paid medical and family leave. You know what people are saying? Huh, maybe I will get involved, maybe we can change what's going on in America, maybe we can create a decent society.
KELLY: Can you see a progressive, can you see a democratic socialist winning the White House in 2028?
SANDERS: Sure. Absolutely.
KELLY: Who?
SANDERS: All right. I'm not going to go - you know, one of the things that does bother me is that instead of talking...
KELLY: (Laughter) I had to try.
SANDERS: You have to try. But we should be talking about why we're the only major country on Earth not to guarantee health care to all people, not speculating on an election which is going to take place in 2 1/2 years. You know, I think we spend - we have endless campaigns...
KELLY: But what happens right now...
SANDERS: ...And we talk about personalities.
KELLY: ...Is going to shape what's happening in 2028, surely.
SANDERS: No. But let's talk about it. I think as a nation, we need to focus. Why do we have the highest rate of childhood poverty of any major country? Why are we spending $1.1 trillion on the military, including billions for endless wars and support of Netanyahu? We need in the country to have a serious discussion about the very serious issues facing the American people. The political process will play out. Candidates will come up. They'll run. Some will do better than others. We'll see what happens. But I think 2 1/2 years before an election, it's a little bit silly to talk about candidates.
KELLY: Last question. For many years, you've been pushing for universal health care. You've managed to do it multiple times in this conversation. Are we any closer?
SANDERS: Yeah, we are. Poll after poll makes it clear the American people understand this system is broken. It is dysfunctional. It is insanely expensive. We spend twice as much per capita on health care as the people of other nations. But all over the world, they manage to guarantee health care to all people as a human right. The American people want Medicare for All. And if the Democrats gain control of the House and Senate, my top demand will be you pass Medicare for All within the next few months of your taking power.
KELLY: Vermont Independent Senator Bernie Sanders speaking with us from his office on Capitol Hill. Senator, thank you.
SANDERS: Well, thank you very much. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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