LEILA FADEL, HOST:
For more on President Trump's Board of Peace, we're joined by Mary Robinson. She's the former president of Ireland and a founding member of The Elders. That's a group of former world leaders first convened by Nelson Mandela to work for peace. We last heard from her in August when she was visiting Egypt's border with Gaza, and she joins us again now. Madam President, good morning, and thank you for coming back on the program.
MARY ROBINSON: Good morning.
FADEL: So NPR got a leaked copy of the charter of Trump's Board of Peace. There's no mention of Gaza, as our correspondent mentioned. It makes President Trump chairman in perpetuity, and countries would need to pledge more than a billion dollars for permanent membership. What do you make of this Board of Peace?
ROBINSON: Well, I, too, have been looking at the charter, and I don't call it the Board of Peace. I call it the board of the power of one person. It is totally bizarre. And countries should not support it at all. It is not a peacemaking organization.
FADEL: When you say it's not a peacemaking organizations and countries should not support it at all, say more about why.
ROBINSON: Trump is responsible for drawing up the charter. He invites to membership. He decides that you have to pay a billion dollars to become a permanent member. Otherwise, it's three years. To leave, you have to give notice to Trump. Trump has the exclusive authority to create, modify or dissolve subsidiary bodies. Trump is chairman for as long as he likes, and then he chooses his successor, and the successor will choose his - their successor. And we now know that he's bullying people if they say they don't want to become members. I mean, it is an outrageous way of moving away from what the Security Council thought a Board of Peace might focus on, which is Gaza. And even then, you know, the Security Council was somewhat corralled into agreeing to support the idea. But this isn't - this is something that is trying to replace the United Nations and, in particular, the Security Council. Yes, they are flawed. But, you know, we need an organization that was created for all countries to meet on the basis of sovereign equality.
FADEL: So you see this Board of Peace solely as a project to empower President Trump?
ROBINSON: Yes.
FADEL: The billion-dollar contribution for countries to gain a permanent seat, I mean, is that something that can even be done ethically?
ROBINSON: No (laughter) because it is elevating richer countries to a position of permanent membership, and poorer countries cannot qualify.
FADEL: This was supposed to be about Gaza. As you have said, as our correspondent has said, Gaza is not even mentioned. So where does that leave the territory that this was supposed to be about?
ROBINSON: Well, I think, you know, Prime Minister Carney was right when he said at Davos that there is a rupture now in our system, and President Trump is largely responsible for it. But I think we have to acknowledge that, although President Trump withdrew from the Paris Agreement and now from the UNFCCC as a whole and many other bodies, no other country has followed him. So it's a rupture, but it is not the end of a rules-based order. We must defend the rules-based order, and all other countries must affirm their support for the rules-based order.
FADEL: Order was a fiction, and it could be used to subjugate, which it is being done now. And you mentioned the billion-dollar payment for permanent membership advantages wealthier countries. But isn't that also true about the U.N. Security Council advantaging more powerful and wealthier countries?
ROBINSON: There is something very wrong with the Security Council of the United Nations at the moment. It reflects the power of the world in 1945. It needs urgent reform. There is a process to reform it, which I'm very keen on. It's called Article 106. It allows for review and reform of the United Nations because it was recognized it was not going to be perfect. It would need reform, and it does. And it needs to reflect the multipolar world that we have but do it in a rules-based way and do it in a way that engages and protects smaller countries as members of the organization. And I would like to see less use obviously of the veto, or maybe, if we could manage it, abolition of the veto altogether. But the composition of the Security Council needs to change to reflect the multipolar power in our world today, the power of countries that are not reflected in the organization. That is a problem, but we can solve that problem. We do not need this board of the power of one Trump imperial idea. It is crazy. And I'm sorry that countries are even thinking about it because they shouldn't be.
FADEL: Well, let me ask you about that because there are world leaders already joining it. Yes, much of Europe has blocked, but others are joining it. Do you see it possibly gaining legitimacy and influence and rivaling the U.N. Security Council?
ROBINSON: It's hard to see it getting legitimacy when the power is the power of President Trump alone. That is not legitimacy for any global order. And we see that he - you know, he loses interest after a while. I think he's lost interest in Gaza. Look at the situation in Gaza at the moment. Since the ceasefire, we've seen some reductions in the killings, but the Israeli attacks in Gaza continue. And OCHA has estimated on 15 January that 463 Palestinians have been killed and 1,269 injured since the ceasefire. That is appalling. Yes, humanitarian aid has improved slightly, but it's still greatly reduced. And there's a de facto annexation of Palestinian lands in the West Bank, and now they bulldozed yesterday the office of UNWRA in East Jerusalem, and the world is not paying attention. These - it is appalling what is happening. It's a silent - you know, trying to undermine any possibility of a two-state solution. So we need the international community to re-engage with. And there is an executive committee now on Gaza, and I hope it will act properly.
FADEL: Former president of Ireland and member of The Elders, Mary Robinson. Thank you so much for your time.
ROBINSON: Thank you very much.
(SOUNDBITE OF SANDY'S "MEADOWED") Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.
